MORE FROM ASHRAWI INTERVIEW

'We should have accepted Partition' By RUTHIE BLUM

What about incitement on Palestinian television? Two weeks ago, there was a children's program in which a puppet said that if someone were to cut down the trees in front of his house, he would get an AK-47 and massacre him.
That's ridiculous. Why would a puppet talk about AK-47s?
[ED. LAST MONTH A POSTED A VIDEO OF THE PUPPET OF DEATH. I GUESS ASHRWAI DOESN'T VISIT THIS BLOG]

There is also a clip in which a child actor plays Muhammad al-Dura in an amusement park in heaven, and calls upon other children to join him.
You must watch more Palestinian TV than I do. Anyway, this is taken out of context. People try to make it look as if this is everything they're showing on Palestinian television. I'm sure anybody monitoring Israeli TV would find horrible things as well.

But Palestinian children are being bombarded with this kind of material.
They are not being bombarded. Palestinian children don't have to learn about violence from textbooks or TV. All they have to do is watch the news... [or] live in an area that is bombed or shelled or where their parents are arrested or beaten up. Studies show that more than 80 percent of Palestinian children are in a state of constant trauma. So, the reality they live in is inherently abnormal. And the fact that they are robbed of their traditional source of security and comfort - their families - since their parents themselves are vulnerable and cannot protect their children.

What should have happened after the '67 war, when Israel was attacked and ended up victorious?
There should have been a real withdrawal, with a real negotiation about a two-state solution then.

Can you give me an example of another country that was victorious in a war waged against it that sat down to negotiate withdrawal when the war was over?
I don't see why one always has to find a precedent. But yes, people who are victorious in war do negotiate - especially when the result of that war leads them to control the lives of a population on land that is not theirs. There is such a thing as the acquisition of territory by war, and there is such a thing as international humanitarian law.

Do Jews have the right to sovereignty over any part of the territory?
Yes, Israel has the right to exist on 78% of historical Palestine, which is the land it had in June 1967. So 22%, the West Bank and Gaza, is Palestine. This is the only way we can have a two-state solution, with people living side by side, and start a process of historical reconciliation.

What about the right of return of the Palestinian refugees to Israel?
You start with the narrative of the Palestinian refugees - the historical injustice that was done to them. [You cannot continue to] blame the Arabs or the refugees, and not recognize the fact that the creation of Israel inflicted a historical injustice and tremendous pain on the Palestinian population. So, first you recognize that. Then, you cannot negate their right to return. You say: "OK, they have the right to return, but let's negotiate how to implement that right."
Those are the first two steps. The third step is to look at options and permutations.

If the right of return of Palestinian refugees is recognized and implemented, isn't it true that there can't be a two-state solution? That, due to demography, there will end up being only one state, and that will be Palestinian?
Yes, it would be non-Jewish.

If the Israelis and the Palestinians resolve their conflict, will there be stability in the Middle East?
In the same way as insecurity and violence and instability have a spill-over effect, I think peace has a ripple effect. Once there is peace in Palestine, you will see a rapid transformation of the region.

Yet, before 1967, the region wasn't stable.
The region has rarely been entirely stable. I mean in '48, you can't consider that stable. It began with the establishment of the State of Israel. That was a whole new phase. But now the Palestinians are willing to accept a two-state solution.

In 1948, you weren't willing to accept it, though. How do you feel about that in hindsight?
I say that we should have accepted the partition. Not that we had recognition then, nor were we really asked.